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sultan_emerr

President Obama Working To Solve The Jewish Problem.

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Ive tried to be open minded toward the far left president, unlike the left was to Bush, and unlike the consverative media (Hannity) is to Obama. However, with speeches like this I find it becoming harder and harder. I watched his speech and was left dumfounded and amazed.

As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam at places like al-Azhar that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities...

Uh, no Mr. President. History shows time and time again that Islam suppresed enlightenment. To say it "paved the way" is nothign but BS.

His countuing kiss-ass attitude towards Islam is not diplomacy. It is not helping America. Our enemies are sitting back laughing and thanking Allah that America elected Obama.

Oh, and Sultan, I clicked the last link in your sig. Nice :thumbsup:

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Uh, no Mr. President. History shows time and time again that Islam suppresed enlightenment. To say it "paved the way" is nothign but BS.

Erm....

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Simply put, that is the PC version of history. Yes, there have been brilliant Muslims, and new concepts come from Muslims. However, the religion as a whole suppresses even the idea of enlightenment. No bigger evidence of this than to look at the West vs the Middle East in modern times.

Edited by Bubba Bob

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Simply put, that is the PC version of history.

The sections on topics that I'm familiar with seem to be accurate enough.

No bigger evidence of this than to look at the West vs the Middle East in modern times.

We aren't talking about modern times.

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We aren't talking about modern times.

Fair Enough.

Let me go back to the quote and clarify. Obama claims that we owe a 'debt' to Islam because Islam paved the way for Europe's enlightenment. This is wrong on several fronts.

First, let us look at the time period that Wikipedia claims Islam had its "Golden Age". At about the same time Islam was rapidly expanding. It engulfed the Middle East and North Africa. Everywhere Islam went, so did its harsh rulers and treatment of infidels. The Jizya tax and punishment forced countless people of other faiths to convert to Islam. Many of accomplishments given to Islam really go to the Byzitean, Persians, and the others that they took over. In fact, when the Islam invaders conquered, many advancments of the previous peoples were either discarded or stopped. For example, the first hosptial was in Bagdahd, but most medical break throughs of the time were made elsewhere. Why? Islamic law forbade common things such as humane disection.

Furthermore, many of the arts that came from Muslims are significant not because of the Islamic hertitage, but because the lack there of. In other words, many arts came from Muslims, not Islam (see the difference?).

The european enlightenment came inspite of, not because of Islam. If the Crusades had not been called and Islam had spread to Europe, there would never have been a "golden age" for Europe, and we would all be living in the 18th century still. Islamic law and the Koran simply do not allow for a Renaissance period such as the one in Europe. Muslims made controbutions, NOT Islam. Therefore "we" do not owe a debt to Islam such as Mr Obama claims we do. (I hope I am clear on this?)

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First, let us look at the time period that Wikipedia claims Islam had its "Golden Age". At about the same time Islam was rapidly expanding. It engulfed the Middle East and North Africa. Everywhere Islam went, so did its harsh rulers and treatment of infidels.

That's not unusual. The Roman 'Golden Age' coincided with (or slightly preceded, depending on your POV) the Roman conquest of Europe and the Renaissance and Enlightenment coincided with the European conquest of the Americas and Africa. There was, as I recall, even a 'mini-renaissance' that coincided with the Crusades.

Many of accomplishments given to Islam really go to the Byzitean, Persians, and the others that they took over.

No doubt.

Furthermore, many of the arts that came from Muslims are significant not because of the Islamic hertitage, but because the lack there of. In other words, many arts came from Muslims, not Islam (see the difference?).

It seems like you could turn the argument around and claim that, e.g., the Enlightenment was a product of westerners but not of the West.

The european enlightenment came inspite of, not because of Islam. If the Crusades had not been called and Islam had spread to Europe, there would never have been a "golden age" for Europe, and we would all be living in the 18th century still.

Islam did spread into Europe. The result was arguably the high-point of Iberian civilization.

Islamic law and the Koran simply do not allow for a Renaissance period such as the one in Europe.

That didn't stop it from happening.

[Edited for brevity.]

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I beleive you're still missing my point (my fault). Im not getting into a tit for tat debate, because it is the whole picture that matters. Western culture and ideals allowed for free thought and expressions (well - mostly - The Roman Catholic church stunted a lot) where as Islam as a whole does not. For Obama to say that we owe a debt to ISLAM is wrong. (key arguement <<<<) Everything Islam touched, touches, and will touch, it suppresses. Islam has stunted/haulted/stopped/reversed more 'enlightenment' than it can every create.

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Western culture and ideals allowed for free thought and expressions (well - mostly - The Roman Catholic church stunted a lot) where as Islam as a whole does not.

No one is arguing that Islam should be credited for Western liberalism.

For Obama to say that we owe a debt to ISLAM is wrong. (key arguement <<<<) Everything Islam touched, touches, and will touch, it suppresses. Islam has stunted/haulted/stopped/reversed more 'enlightenment' than it can every create.

That's not an argument.

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So society does owe a debt to Islam?

Ask society. It doesn't involve me and I don't care.

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His countuing kiss-ass attitude towards Islam is not diplomacy. It is not helping America.

Islam is a religion. The religion is not our enemy.

Our enemies are sitting back laughing and thanking Allah that America elected Obama.

Right. Because he won't start an unwarranted war with countries in the middle east. I fail to see how anything Obama has done with his foreign policy has hurt us. In fact, I'm extremely happy to see a president reaching out peacefully to other nations.

Everything Islam touched, touches, and will touch, it suppresses.

Pakistan had a female president. Has this "Christian country" had one of those?

You're lumping Islamic Extremism in with the rest of it. I think it is QUITE unfair to make such a claim about any religion. I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if we lumped the Extreme Christianity with the rest? Man, those crusades... Christians are killers. We should declare war on them.

look at the West vs the Middle East in modern times

Yep. Because the West is right by default.

So society does owe a debt to Islam?

Yes. Just as society owes a debt to Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Taoism, and every other religion.

And, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Taoism, and every other religion have messed up this world just as much, if not more than, Islam.

I'm very unreligious. I think the majority of religions suppress their followers. But to attack just one, such as Islam, is nothing but closed-mindedness .

When people confuse a religion with the politics of a foreign nation, everything get skewed.

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When people confuse a religion with the politics of a foreign nation, everything get skewed.

They go hand in hand. Middle Eastern counties are often ISLAMIC STATES. Islamic Law and government coincide.

I'm very unreligious. I think the majority of religions suppress their followers. But to attack just one, such as Islam, is nothing but closed-mindedness .

There is no other mjaor religion that is so controlling, or that dictates every way of life, other than Islam.

Right. Because he won't start an unwarranted war with countries in the middle east. I fail to see how anything Obama has done with his foreign policy has hurt us. In fact, I'm extremely happy to see a president reaching out peacefully to other nations.

He makes America look weak. NOT GOOD.

Anyway, back to the point, Islam did not add enough to the world that anyone owes a debt. For most of it's history Islam was DEstructive not CONstructive. To say that any owes a debt to Islam is political drivel.

Edited by Bubba Bob

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Obama's Great Speech = "I think that the speech was well written and very well given. Obama’s new beginning with Muslims was hailed by many Muslim as a good start. .............................................". Edited by sultan_emerr

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Or, you could look at the real purpose of the speech.

"I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world, one based upon mutual interest and mutual respect ... America and Islam are not exclusive, and need not be in competition."

"This cycle of suspicion and discord must end."

"This is about preventing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East that could lead this region and the world down a hugely dangerous path."

Reuters

But talk is cheap. Get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, then I'll be happy.

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He makes America look weak. NOT GOOD

I disagree. As someone who is keenly interested in American politics I would argue that the converse is true. Saber rattling is a thing of the past. President Bush's tough-talking Texas machismo did nothing to forward the interests of the USA. If anything it made you (The USA) a laughing stock with the international community.

In my opinion I think President Obama is doing a good job with reaching out to mainstream Islam. The people who are of the Islamic faith are not the enemies of the USA. The extremist nut-jobs are your enemies.

I find it refreshing that you have a President that is intelligent, well-spoken.

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